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Thread: caramel 2013 season

  1. #1

    caramel 2013 season

    While I was in Florida, a friend(thank's Alex) came home to take care of the reptile and see if everything went well... The caramel female was about to lay, but I didn't expected it was so close. He discover 32 good eggs, one bad, and 5 slugs, not bad for a second year for this 10 foot caramel female....

    This will probably confirm the 2 incompatible caramel lineage theory.


  2. #2
    congratz

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    that sounds like a pretty awsome clutch from a 2nd yr 10 foot girl.outstanding.hope your incubation goes well too.

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    congrats and the very best with the incubation!! a crying shame about the imcompatible issue but thanks for sharing that info with us here!!

  5. #5
    Senior Member Georg F.'s Avatar
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    Good to see that you give it another try.
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    So did you breed the same caramel male to her? Good luck with the eggs! They look great!

  7. #7
    Yes, the same male went with her.

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    Best of luck with them Justin.. I think we are all just excited as you to see and know the outcome.. Please keep us updated

  9. #9
    around 47 days.... Starting to get excited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Marois View Post
    around 47 days.... Starting to get excited.
    looking forward to seeing how this pans out!!

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    Holy crap, that was a fast 47 days... When do they come out, is it 60 days?

  12. #12
    Best of luck. Really hope its answers your questions. Glad to see you decided to keep a man to do it again. Did you keep any from the last season? If so do they show any signs. Of being het?

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    If they really are that far along you could probably cut one open anytime and see if you have normal or caramels. I've cut several eggs around 48 days, and even less days in some cases. If you aren't sure how far along they are or if they were incubated on the cooler side you might want to wait a few more days. Pigmentation is one of the last things to come in and if you cut them too soon it's some times hard to tell what you have anyway.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacker79 View Post
    If they really are that far along you could probably cut one open anytime and see if you have normal or caramels. I've cut several eggs around 48 days, and even less days in some cases. If you aren't sure how far along they are or if they were incubated on the cooler side you might want to wait a few more days. Pigmentation is one of the last things to come in and if you cut them too soon it's some times hard to tell what you have anyway.
    if the eggs are cut to early. Will they still hatch? I've seen where breeders have ripped eggs when separating them and put a bandaid on them to hatch.what's the soonest the eggs should be cut?

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    Quote Originally Posted by robin scott budd View Post
    if the eggs are cut to early. Will they still hatch? I've seen where breeders have ripped eggs when separating them and put a bandaid on them to hatch.what's the soonest the eggs should be cut?

    I personally have cut at least some eggs as early as 43 days and have never had any problems. If you cut them too early you can't even really tell what you are seeing, but 47-48 days they should be pigmented enough assuming they weren't incubated really low or something.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Georg F.'s Avatar
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    There is not one reason to cut eggs before the first baby pips ..
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    I agree with Georg.. Be patient.. Zero need to rush things.. Infact its better for them to sit in egg to absorb the entire yoke..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Georg F. View Post
    There is not one reason to cut eggs before the first baby pips ..
    I have a dead albino retic that should have been the first to pip say otherwise...lol

    It's a decision you have to make for yourself, and i certainly don't blame Justin for waiting. There is a lot of literature out there that says to wait until one pips before cutting the rest, but I don't see the harm in cutting them a little early in most cases. If cutting eggs a little early was really that high risk there would be a lot more topics of people having problems with it all the reptile forums as a lot of people do it. I've done it hundreds of times if not a lot more by now. The only real harm I can see happening is if the egg you cut open some how were to get turned over and most of the yolk were to poor out, or if it allowed more time for some something bad to get in the egg. Now that I'm thinking about it, I do remember prehistoric pets having maggots get in some eggs they cut early. So, I guess that could be a risk. As I recall they still hatched out just fine.

    As for absorbing all the yolk I don't think the yolk they loose when you cut them open a little early should be that different than the yolk they loose when they slit the eggs themselves. In fact, it could often be less as a lot of times babies slit the side of their shell instead of the top which causes more yolk to drain out. As far as I can tell they will still stay in the egg just as long and absorb the yolk as the ones that pip themselves.

    Sorry to hijack the thread Justin, but it's an interesting topic, and one that sort of hits me hard after I had that albino retic (which was still quite valuable at the time) die in the egg. I had a tiger het albino retic X purple albino clutch getting close to hatching, and I was checking on the eggs several times a day. I went into check on them for the last time that day when I noticed an egg with lines going back and forth across it's shell. I looked at this egg for a minute then quickly realized the lines were from the baby inside trying to slit the egg, but just didn't quite break through. I immediately cut it open and found a dead fully developed albino retic. I felt horrible I let that happen. Not to mention I had horrible odds on the clutch and didn't even get that many albinos or albino tigers. Anyway, my only point is use your head and own judgement. For me I was trying to do what all the books said to do, and it bit me in the ass. Anytime I have a clutch with anything special, I always cut them early now.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by robin scott budd View Post
    Best of luck. Really hope its answers your questions. Glad to see you decided to keep a man to do it again. Did you keep any from the last season? If so do they show any signs. Of being het?
    We kept all 10 living baby from last year. Don't know what are the T+ het marker, so can't be of any help.


    No problem Ben, it's not hijack at all, it's getting interesting... in fact i'm here to learn from others experience and to share mine.

    Last year, I had around 28 perfect eggs. When the first pip out, there was a little bad smell in the incubator. Even with the smell factor notice, I wait for a few days, and finally start to cut eggs. Result, only 9 other baby where still alive. Did I cut eggs too late??? So, will I cut eggs early from this experience? Yes! Of course.
    I cut an egg on day 47, with all the yellow juice and the reduce pigmentation, it appear to be a caramel. I put it back, didn't want to mess with it. Yesterday I cut a couple more and under the flashlite, it seem they start to get black pigmentation, look like they will be normal. I will probably wait a couple more days, to cut them all around 58 days....If I can wait until 58! Anyway, it's only a matter of time to know exactly what's inside those eggs.

    Concerning pigmentation, I would really like to know from other experience... when approximately pigmentation start to be here and how many days before pigmentation is complete inside the egg?

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    Color pigmentation comes last.. Just look at the color of most new born Hypos, then look at them 2 weeks later..

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    Example of Hypos color when hatching.. There are all Hypo het greens

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRGYpKzPV8I

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Marois View Post
    We kept all 10 living baby from last year. Don't know what are the T+ het marker, so can't be of any help.


    No problem Ben, it's not hijack at all, it's getting interesting... in fact i'm here to learn from others experience and to share mine.

    Last year, I had around 28 perfect eggs. When the first pip out, there was a little bad smell in the incubator. Even with the smell factor notice, I wait for a few days, and finally start to cut eggs. Result, only 9 other baby where still alive. Did I cut eggs too late??? So, will I cut eggs early from this experience? Yes! Of course.
    I cut an egg on day 47, with all the yellow juice and the reduce pigmentation, it appear to be a caramel. I put it back, didn't want to mess with it. Yesterday I cut a couple more and under the flashlite, it seem they start to get black pigmentation, look like they will be normal. I will probably wait a couple more days, to cut them all around 58 days....If I can wait until 58! Anyway, it's only a matter of time to know exactly what's inside those eggs.

    Concerning pigmentation, I would really like to know from other experience... when approximately pigmentation start to be here and how many days before pigmentation is complete inside the egg?
    All the babies you hatched should be het for t+ as the mom is an visual t+, and if you do produce normal burms again, then that means your babies are all het for two different lines of t+ which really makes things complicated. So hopefully that isn't the case. If you are able to post any pics we could probably help you out with identifying what the babies are. I haven't seen any t+ babies in the egg in person, but I've seen plenty of normals and should easily be able to tell what yours are.

    I'm not sure what happened with your clutch last year. It's unlikely they died because you didn't cut the eggs. Most of the time the babies should be able to pip the eggs their self, so it usually only an egg here and there that can't do it, and not so many at one time. Also, the few eggs I have seen where the baby drowned in the egg, it was usually clear they tried to slit the egg but didn't make it. I have had some babies die full term for no clear reason as well, but never more than one at a time unless there were visual defects.

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    You are soo close now.. How are they looking.. Any updates or any pics of the ones you snipped..

  24. #24
    I just wanted to thank you guys. This has been a very educational thread. If we get our incubator built this year we plan on breeding next season. If it wasn't for people like you beginning breeders such as myself wouldn't know what to do. It people. Like you that make this hobby what it is to day. Thank you.
    Justin, what are your plans for the yearlings? If you prove the incompatible line with this clutch will you raise the babies to breed back to the parents? If the babies are het for both t+ lines will back breeding give up both t+ lines? Or if you breed baby to baby will you produce a new Carmel line?

  25. #25
    Senior Member Georg F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hacker79 View Post
    I have a dead albino retic that should have been the first to pip say otherwise...lol

    It's a decision you have to make for yourself, and i certainly don't blame Justin for waiting. There is a lot of literature out there that says to wait until one pips before cutting the rest, but I don't see the harm in cutting them a little early in most cases. If cutting eggs a little early was really that high risk there would be a lot more topics of people having problems with it all the reptile forums as a lot of people do it. I've done it hundreds of times if not a lot more by now. The only real harm I can see happening is if the egg you cut open some how were to get turned over and most of the yolk were to poor out, or if it allowed more time for some something bad to get in the egg. Now that I'm thinking about it, I do remember prehistoric pets having maggots get in some eggs they cut early. So, I guess that could be a risk. As I recall they still hatched out just fine.
    I can hear your opinion Ben.

    For my part I stopped cutting eggs open. You may ask why? Well, with doing the best we can to hatch as many babies as possible we put one factor more and more aside. I'm talking about the factor selection. Not all eggs are made to produce babies. Incubators (normally) don't select the strong from the weak, neither do razor blades. And so on.. And yes, I'm aware of facts like bakteria that thins the eggshell in nature.

    My approach to this is that if an animal is not able to hatch on its own it is not made for living. If an animal doesn't hatch after 2 months amidst 'perfect' conditions it simply should not hatch. I'm not breeding my snakes for a living but even if I would do so I would do it that way for 99%. What I want to 'produce' are hardy strong animals that I feel comfortable to put into the reproduction later on.

    Picky eaters? Not prosecute if you proceed that way.

    E.g. I'm also not force feeding any of my burms. Never done it, never will do it. The highest feeling is an assist-feed. If an animal doesn't eat after trying the standard tricks it simply should not become an adult. That may sound harsh but isn't it the truth?
    I had a silversided butterscotch that was a problem feeder(it ate only ones or twice on its own and that was it). As you can imagine I was in a strife with myself. A strife like never before. Sleepless nights were followed by days full of doubts. One day I found myself standing in front of my baby rack staring at that (forbidden gorgeous) little creature. I paused and listend to my gut. From that moment on I knew that I will not deny my settled conviction. A week or two later this animal was no longer with us.
    Now looking back I am comfortable with my decision. It still hurts but that way I found out how I want to proceed. For me that was the last clutch I cut open.

    I might sound insane (pretty sure I do lol) but for me this is the right (only?) way to achieve a health bloodline, health and hardy animals as well as animals I can give away without an upset stomach.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hacker79 View Post
    As for absorbing all the yolk I don't think the yolk they loose when you cut them open a little early should be that different than the yolk they loose when they slit the eggs themselves. In fact, it could often be less as a lot of times babies slit the side of their shell instead of the top which causes more yolk to drain out. As far as I can tell they will still stay in the egg just as long and absorb the yolk as the ones that pip themselves.
    About the yolk: when you cut eggs you normally only loose a little bit of eggwhite (white yolk). The main role of egg white is to protect the egg yolk and the embryo. The closer you get to hatching the less it is needed. So this should really be not a big problem at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hacker79 View Post
    Sorry to hijack the thread Justin, but it's an interesting topic
    - Justin, please bear with me too, but I just had to share my opinion on this much discussed topic.
    www.dwarfpythons.com - the smallest, the bessssssst

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    its good to share and give opinions as that's what this place is all about after all.
    as for the cutting of eggs, I myself only do so after a certain amount of days have passed after the first hatchlings hatch. while I understand georgs point of view with the cutting of eggs and going on to be bad ,picky feeders etc which I agree with I also understand the views of others who choose to cut once near or on hatch day.
    also is the content of the egg that's cut and leaks out not called some thing else(I can say it but can't spell it!!) as I do believe the egg yolk and white are as one so to speak ???

  27. #27
    Senior Member Georg F.'s Avatar
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    Maybe you mean the allantois (or more likely) Albumin?
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  28. #28
    This topic is becoming more and more interesting with every response...

    Robin, all yearling are keeper, I didn't want to let anything go before knowing a little more, what they are. I do think there is 2 caramel lines(or more). I got no firm response to tell you about the outcome when baby to baby will be bred again. One line will be stronger than the other? Both line will pop, new morph? Don't know, but will experiment it.

    I really like your approach Georg F. I got more experience with monitor eggs, and with those eggs, it's exactly the best way to go, so you make me re-think about my burm eggs cutting approach. I raise a bunch of WC colubrids snakes over the years (spilotes, pseustes, drymobius, masticophis, ptyas,...) and 90% of the time I had to force feed a reluctant eater, it end in the freezer.

    If you guys are hurry to know what's going on, imagine myself... One thing is sure, we are close to the goal!

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Georg F. View Post
    Maybe you mean the allantois (or more likely) Albumin?
    that's it georg,like I said I can say it but my spelling is awful at the best of times!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Georg F. View Post
    I can hear your opinion Ben.

    For my part I stopped cutting eggs open. You may ask why? Well, with doing the best we can to hatch as many babies as possible we put one factor more and more aside. I'm talking about the factor selection. Not all eggs are made to produce babies. Incubators (normally) don't select the strong from the weak, neither do razor blades. And so on.. And yes, I'm aware of facts like bakteria that thins the eggshell in nature.

    My approach to this is that if an animal is not able to hatch on its own it is not made for living. If an animal doesn't hatch after 2 months amidst 'perfect' conditions it simply should not hatch. I'm not breeding my snakes for a living but even if I would do so I would do it that way for 99%. What I want to 'produce' are hardy strong animals that I feel comfortable to put into the reproduction later on.

    Picky eaters? Not prosecute if you proceed that way.

    E.g. I'm also not force feeding any of my burms. Never done it, never will do it. The highest feeling is an assist-feed. If an animal doesn't eat after trying the standard tricks it simply should not become an adult. That may sound harsh but isn't it the truth?
    I had a silversided butterscotch that was a problem feeder(it ate only ones or twice on its own and that was it). As you can imagine I was in a strife with myself. A strife like never before. Sleepless nights were followed by days full of doubts. One day I found myself standing in front of my baby rack staring at that (forbidden gorgeous) little creature. I paused and listend to my gut. From that moment on I knew that I will not deny my settled conviction. A week or two later this animal was no longer with us.
    Now looking back I am comfortable with my decision. It still hurts but that way I found out how I want to proceed. For me that was the last clutch I cut open.

    I might sound insane (pretty sure I do lol) but for me this is the right (only?) way to achieve a health bloodline, health and hardy animals as well as animals I can give away without an upset stomach.




    About the yolk: when you cut eggs you normally only loose a little bit of eggwhite (white yolk). The main role of egg white is to protect the egg yolk and the embryo. The closer you get to hatching the less it is needed. So this should really be not a big problem at all.




    - Justin, please bear with me too, but I just had to share my opinion on this much discussed topic.
    I certainly respect your opinion and everyone else that chooses to just let them hatch out on their own. I do that myself with a lot of my eggs simply because I don't want to take the time to cut them open, and there is just something about watching them come out all on their own. Still I personally don't see a problem with cutting them open a little early.

    I get what you are saying about natural selection (or selective natural selection...lol), but I'm not sure why if a baby can cut it's self out of the egg or not should be the deciding factor. There could be a number of reasons on why a snake isn't able to break through the shell that has nothing to do with the actual snake it's self. The shell could just be abnormally thicker or tougher , the egg tooth it has is defective, and so on. I understand you had a baby burm hatch out that wouldn't eat, but I'm not sure how that lead you to stop cutting eggs. In all honesty that one would have probably hatched out all on its own no problem. Most certainly do, and it's not that common that they do drown in the egg. I understand you wanting to have the strongest captive snakes possible, but to me it doesn't add up that we do everything else for our snakes, but when it comes to them hatching out of the egg we are going to let nature take it's course. Especially, when the reasons for why a snake can't slit it's egg open could very well be more of an environmental issue, and not a genetic one.

    In captivity, the incubation process is probably far from perfect for most everyone (myself included!). To this day I still try new techniques and little changes here and there. I almost always have eggs that for various reason are drying out or getting too wet and I have to make little changes. Also, I bet almost no one actually incubates their eggs closer to 92 degrees like females do naturally. Also, females will actually lower the temperature for the last part of incubation, while a lot keepers unknowingly raise the temperature by not taking into account the heat that babies close to hatching generate in the tub.

    Anyway, my only point is pretty much everything we do with our snakes is not natural in captivity, and therefor I don't see the reason why to let nature take it course on this one topic. I think snakes that don't do well in captivity will weed themselves out through natural captive selection....lol I sure don't want to sell anyone a picky eater or a burm that is bad for any other reasons, as I would probably have to spend hours on the phone with the person that got it. Pretty much every burm I have probably never would have made it out in the wild much past being a baby anway....lol

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